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	<title>Comments on: Repetition and Replacement</title>
	<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/</link>
	<description>It&#8217;s a work in progress</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0</generator>

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		<title>by: Thierry Koblentz</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-1066</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 May 2006 17:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-1066</guid>
					<description>I think I found a way to make this technique works in IE Win: 
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/png_overlay_with_no_extra_markup.asp&quot; title=&quot;This works in IE Win too!&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;PNG Overlay with no extra markup.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I found a way to make this technique works in <abbr title="Internet Explorer">IE</abbr> Win:<br />
<a   href="http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/png_overlay_with_no_extra_markup.asp" title="This works in IE Win too!"   rel="nofollow"><abbr title="Portable Network Graphics">PNG</abbr> Overlay with no extra markup.</a>
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-248</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 22:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-248</guid>
					<description>Both have their origins in the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.moronicbajebus.com/playground/cssplay/image-replacement/&quot;&gt;Leahy&lt;/a&gt;/&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/lir/&quot;&gt;Langridge&lt;/a&gt; method. The key differentiator here is that &lt;abbr title=&quot;img Image Replacement&quot;&gt;iIR&lt;/abbr&gt; applies this technique to an &lt;code&gt;img&lt;/code&gt; element, not a standard text element (&lt;code&gt;a&lt;/code&gt;, &lt;code&gt;li&lt;/code&gt;, &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt;, etc.). It's applying background images &lt;em&gt;to images&lt;/em&gt;.

Here's another, slightly different example of this technique: We start with an alpha-transparent image (in this case, the moon):

&lt;img alt=&quot;The Moon&quot; src=&quot;/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/iIR_sample_img.png&quot; /&gt;

and then we apply some style to it to add a background:

&lt;pre&gt;&lt;code&gt;img#moon {
  display: block;
  background: url(iIR_sample_bg.jpg) top left no-repeat;
  width: 75px;
  height: 76px;
  padding: 20px 205px 200px 20px;
  margin: 1em auto;
}&lt;/code&gt;&lt;/pre&gt;

which gives us this:

&lt;img style=&quot;margin: 1em auto; padding: 20px 205px 200px 20px; background: url('/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/iIR_sample_bg.jpg'); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; display: block; width: 75px; height: 76px&quot; alt=&quot;The Moon&quot; src=&quot;/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/iIR_sample_img.png&quot; /&gt;

Kinda intersting to experiment with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Both have their origins in the <a  href="http://www.moronicbajebus.com/playground/cssplay/image-replacement/" rel="nofollow">Leahy</a>/<a  href="http://www.kryogenix.org/code/browser/lir/" rel="nofollow">Langridge</a> method. The key differentiator here is that <abbr title="img Image Replacement">iIR</abbr> applies this technique to an <code>img</code> element, not a standard text element (<code>a</code>, <code>li</code>, <code>h1</code>, etc.). It&#8217;s applying background images <em>to images</em>.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s another, slightly different example of this technique: We start with an alpha-transparent image (in this case, the moon):</p>
<p><img alt="The Moon" src="/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/iIR_sample_img.png" /></p>
<p>and then we apply some style to it to add a background:</p>
<pre><code>img#moon {
  display: block;
  background: url(iIR_sample_bg.jpg) top left no-repeat;
  width: 75px;
  height: 76px;
  padding: 20px 205px 200px 20px;
  margin: 1em auto;
}</code></pre>
<p>which gives us this:</p>
<p><img style="margin: 1em auto; padding: 20px 205px 200px 20px; background: url('/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/iIR_sample_bg.jpg'); -moz-background-clip: -moz-initial; -moz-background-origin: -moz-initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: -moz-initial; display: block; width: 75px; height: 76px" alt="The Moon" src="/wp-content/uploads/2006/01/iIR_sample_img.png" /></p>
<p>Kinda intersting to experiment with.
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Blog</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-247</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:51:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-247</guid>
					<description>This method is a variation on this one:

http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2003/09/30/accessible_imagetab_rollovers.html

#nav a {
	float: left;
	padding: 20px 0 0 0;
	overflow: hidden;
	height: 0px !important; 
	height /**/:20px; /* for IE5/Win only */
	}</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This method is a variation on this one:</p>
<p><a  href='http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2003/09/30/accessible_imagetab_rollovers.html' rel='nofollow' rel="nofollow">http://www.simplebits.com/notebook/2003/09/30/accessible_imagetab_rollovers.html</a></p>
<p>#nav a {<br />
	float: left;<br />
	padding: 20px 0 0 0;<br />
	overflow: hidden;<br />
	height: 0px !important;<br />
	height /**/:20px; /* for <abbr title="Internet Explorer 5">IE5</abbr>/Win only */<br />
	}
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-243</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 03:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-243</guid>
					<description>&lt;strong&gt;Thierry:&lt;/strong&gt; Nice find (my searches for things like &quot;h1 img SEO&quot; yielded few results). Though I certainly trust Roger's experience and depth of knowledge, this is still anecdotal, not definitive (emphasis mine):

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200502/basics_of_search_engine_optimisation/&quot;&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;In my experience, this is true&lt;/em&gt; even if the images are inside heading elements. &lt;em&gt;If you know otherwise, please tell.&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Down in the comments, Roger continues (emphasis his):

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200502/basics_of_search_engine_optimisation/#comment30&quot;&gt;&lt;p&gt;It should work like that, but because of keyword spamming in alt attributes, search engines &lt;em&gt;may&lt;/em&gt; value such text less. Again, I have no hard evidence, only personal experience. At the moment, I'd go with some kind of image replacement technique if I were to use graphical headings.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Clearly, we need some clarity on this issue. This will be one of the foci of our Web Standards and Search discussions @ &lt;abbr title=&quot;South by Southwest Interactive&quot;&gt;SXSWi&lt;/abbr&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Thierry:</strong> Nice find (my searches for things like &#8220;h1 img SEO&#8221; yielded few results). Though I certainly trust Roger&#8217;s experience and depth of knowledge, this is still anecdotal, not definitive (emphasis mine):</p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200502/basics_of_search_engine_optimisation/"><p><em>In my experience, this is true</em> even if the images are inside heading elements. <em>If you know otherwise, please tell.</em></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Down in the comments, Roger continues (emphasis his):</p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200502/basics_of_search_engine_optimisation/#comment30"><p>It should work like that, but because of keyword spamming in alt attributes, search engines <em>may</em> value such text less. Again, I have no hard evidence, only personal experience. At the moment, I&#8217;d go with some kind of image replacement technique if I were to use graphical headings.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Clearly, we need some clarity on this issue. This will be one of the foci of our Web Standards and Search discussions @ <abbr title="South by Southwest Interactive">SXSWi</abbr>.
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Thierry Koblentz</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-242</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 02:20:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-242</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If that is the case, I would agree, but, after extensive Google-ing I have found no evidence that it is.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Really? If I Google &quot;search engine optimization text in headings&quot;, the &lt;strong&gt;first&lt;/strong&gt; result is: &lt;a rel=&quot;nofollow&quot; href=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200502/basics_of_search_engine_optimisation/&quot;&gt;Basics of search engine optimisation&lt;/a&gt;. The author says:
&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200502/basics_of_search_engine_optimisation/&quot;&gt;Using graphics for headings may let you use any typeface you want, but search engines aren’t going to pay much attention. Even if you (as is required) use the alt attribute to specify alternate text for heading images, that text will not be anywhere near as important as real text in a heading element. In my experience, this is true even if the images are inside heading elements.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If that is the case, I would agree, but, after extensive Google-ing I have found no evidence that it is.</p></blockquote>
<p>Really? If I Google &#8220;search engine optimization text in headings&#8221;, the <strong>first</strong> result is: <a     href="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200502/basics_of_search_engine_optimisation/" rel="nofollow">Basics of search engine optimisation</a>. The author says:</p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200502/basics_of_search_engine_optimisation/"><p>Using graphics for headings may let you use any typeface you want, but search engines aren’t going to pay much attention. Even if you (as is required) use the alt attribute to specify alternate text for heading images, that text will not be anywhere near as important as real text in a heading element. In my experience, this is true even if the images are inside heading elements.</p></blockquote>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-240</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:53:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-240</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-239&quot;&gt;
  &lt;p&gt;Because &lt;strong&gt;text&lt;/strong&gt; in a &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt; is not the same as the value of the &lt;code&gt;alt&lt;/code&gt; attribute of the &lt;code&gt;img&lt;/code&gt; element; even if it is placed inside a &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

If that is the case, I would agree, but, after extensive Google-ing I have found no evidence that it is. Can you provide a link as backup to your argument? I think that'd be very beneficial to the other readers (and me as well).

I will be involved with two search panels at &lt;abbr title=&quot;South by Southwest Interactive&quot;&gt;SXSWi&lt;/abbr&gt; this year, &quot;Web Standards and Search&quot; and &quot;Web Standards and SEO.&quot; Both have a number of search experts on them, including folks from the engines themselves. I will discuss this topic with them as well to see if we can suss out the details and present them in March.

I am also curious about an additional tack: If we were to use an &lt;code&gt;alt&lt;/code&gt; in addition to a &lt;code&gt;title&lt;/code&gt; on the &lt;code&gt;img&lt;/code&gt;, how that is considered by the search engines? I do know that both &lt;code&gt;alt&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;title&lt;/code&gt; attributes &lt;em&gt;are&lt;/em&gt; indexed, the weight they carry, however, is a mystery to me.

I'll circle back on this topic once I've found something. Please do the same on your end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-239">
<p>Because <strong>text</strong> in a <code>h1</code> is not the same as the value of the <code>alt</code> attribute of the <code>img</code> element; even if it is placed inside a <code>h1</code>.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>If that is the case, I would agree, but, after extensive Google-ing I have found no evidence that it is. Can you provide a link as backup to your argument? I think that&#8217;d be very beneficial to the other readers (and me as well).</p>
<p>I will be involved with two search panels at <abbr title="South by Southwest Interactive">SXSWi</abbr> this year, &#8220;Web Standards and Search&#8221; and &#8220;Web Standards and SEO.&#8221; Both have a number of search experts on them, including folks from the engines themselves. I will discuss this topic with them as well to see if we can suss out the details and present them in March.</p>
<p>I am also curious about an additional tack: If we were to use an <code>alt</code> in addition to a <code>title</code> on the <code>img</code>, how that is considered by the search engines? I do know that both <code>alt</code> and <code>title</code> attributes <em>are</em> indexed, the weight they carry, however, is a mystery to me.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll circle back on this topic once I&#8217;ve found something. Please do the same on your end.
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Thierry Koblentz</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-239</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jan 2006 05:37:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-239</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I guess I just really don’t see the point of doing that. It’s redundant. With images off, you’d end up with the h1 reading “Twinings of LondonTwinings.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Because &lt;strong&gt;text&lt;/strong&gt; in a &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt; is &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; the same as the value of the  &lt;code&gt;alt&lt;/code&gt; attribute of the &lt;code&gt;img&lt;/code&gt; element; &lt;em&gt;even&lt;/em&gt; if it is placed inside a &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt;. If you use “Twinings logo” for &lt;code&gt;alt&lt;/code&gt; and “Twinings of London” for the &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt;, you give Search Engines more things to chew on. &lt;abbr title=&quot;In My opinion&quot;&gt;IMO&lt;/abbr&gt;, a &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt; is a very important element, you do not want to “waste” it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I guess I just really don’t see the point of doing that. It’s redundant. With images off, you’d end up with the h1 reading “Twinings of LondonTwinings.”</p></blockquote>
<p>Because <strong>text</strong> in a <code>h1</code> is <em>not</em> the same as the value of the  <code>alt</code> attribute of the <code>img</code> element; <em>even</em> if it is placed inside a <code>h1</code>. If you use “Twinings logo” for <code>alt</code> and “Twinings of London” for the <code>h1</code>, you give Search Engines more things to chew on. <abbr title="In My opinion">IMO</abbr>, a <code>h1</code> is a very important element, you do not want to “waste” it.
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-238</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2006 00:10:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-238</guid>
					<description>&lt;strong&gt;Thierry:&lt;/strong&gt; I guess I just really don't see the point of doing that. It's redundant. With images off, you'd end up with the &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt; reading &quot;Twinings of LondonTwinings.&quot;

&lt;strong&gt;Mark:&lt;/strong&gt; Thanks, I'm glad you liked it.

I think you make a valid point and I wonder how dial-up users deal with images in general nowadays. The stats may paint a different picture, but, on that rare occasion when I do surf on dial-up, I tend to turn images off. I don't know if that's a common practice now or not, but I believe some of the stats programs out there could tell you the numbers for your audience. That would be a good place to look for guidance if you are considering an approach like this.

We certainly should not make any assumptions (or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.oddcouple.info/faq.html#e4&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;you know what&lt;/a&gt;) about users turning off images when on dial-up and I strongly advise against using tons of super high-resolution images on a single page, with or without &lt;abbr title=&quot;img Image Replacement&quot;&gt;iIR&lt;/abbr&gt;. As with many things in life, &lt;abbr title=&quot;img Image Replacement&quot;&gt;iIR&lt;/abbr&gt;'s best used in moderation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Thierry:</strong> I guess I just really don&#8217;t see the point of doing that. It&#8217;s redundant. With images off, you&#8217;d end up with the <code>h1</code> reading &#8220;Twinings of LondonTwinings.&#8221;</p>
<p><strong>Mark:</strong> Thanks, I&#8217;m glad you liked it.</p>
<p>I think you make a valid point and I wonder how dial-up users deal with images in general nowadays. The stats may paint a different picture, but, on that rare occasion when I do surf on dial-up, I tend to turn images off. I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s a common practice now or not, but I believe some of the stats programs out there could tell you the numbers for your audience. That would be a good place to look for guidance if you are considering an approach like this.</p>
<p>We certainly should not make any assumptions (or <a   href="http://www.oddcouple.info/faq.html#e4"   rel="nofollow">you know what</a>) about users turning off images when on dial-up and I strongly advise against using tons of super high-resolution images on a single page, with or without <abbr title="img Image Replacement">iIR</abbr>. As with many things in life, <abbr title="img Image Replacement">iIR</abbr>&#8217;s best used in moderation.
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Marc</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-237</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2006 23:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-237</guid>
					<description>Just another point, and not meaning to sound negative, but wouldnt both images download when the page is displayed?  Thus inhibiting dialup users? (I know they are a dying breed!)  Other than that a very well presented and informative article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just another point, and not meaning to sound negative, but wouldnt both images download when the page is displayed?  Thus inhibiting dialup users? (I know they are a dying breed!)  Other than that a very well presented and informative article.
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>by: Alex Jones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; iIR: img Image Replacement</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-236</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jan 2006 19:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2006/01/09/repetition-and-replacement/#comment-236</guid>
					<description>[...] A discussion of the concept is running at the associated blog entry. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] A discussion of the concept is running at the associated blog entry. [&#8230;]
</p>]]></content:encoded>
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