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	<title>Comments on: Trash + DOM = Treasure?</title>
	<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/</link>
	<description>It&#8217;s a work in progress</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 03:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-16</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Jun 2005 23:44:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-16</guid>
					<description>Hooray for &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Roger Johansson&lt;/a&gt;, whose &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200505/transparent_custom_corners_and_borders/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;custom transparent, rounded corners&lt;/a&gt; are clean, mean and not at all junky.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hooray for <a   href="http://www.456bereastreet.com"   rel="nofollow">Roger Johansson</a>, whose <a   href="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200505/transparent_custom_corners_and_borders/"   rel="nofollow">custom transparent, rounded corners</a> are clean, mean and not at all junky.
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		<title>by: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-15</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2005 20:26:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-15</guid>
					<description>It's always up to you to draw the line when you feel that the extra HTML hooks are ok for CSS and other purposes, and when it's just too much.

Like with the css Zen Garden HTML, it might be useful to easily re-style the web page/site without altering the HTML code.

However, I personally try to keep my HTML as lean as possible and very rarely add elements through DOM scripting (depends on the purpose, of course). When it comes to interaction, my standpoint is pretty clear in my post you linked to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s always up to you to draw the line when you feel that the extra <abbr title="HyperText Markup Language">HTML</abbr> hooks are ok for <abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</abbr> and other purposes, and when it&#8217;s just too much.</p>
<p>Like with the <abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</abbr> Zen Garden <abbr title="HyperText Markup Language">HTML</abbr>, it might be useful to easily re-style the web page/site without altering the <abbr title="HyperText Markup Language">HTML</abbr> code.</p>
<p>However, I personally try to keep my <abbr title="HyperText Markup Language">HTML</abbr> as lean as possible and very rarely add elements through <abbr title="Document Object Model">DOM</abbr> scripting (depends on the purpose, of course). When it comes to interaction, my standpoint is pretty clear in my post you linked to.
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		<title>by: Derek Featherstone</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-14</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2005 05:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-14</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;It is not impossible to do with CSS (and have it degrade gracefully) and perfectly valid (and semantic) markup, so why sully the document, even is it is via the DOM&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I believe the answer lies in context. Inserting extra elements via the DOM might be a solution to be implemented when you want your content to stay as clean as possible - perhaps if someone else is maintaining the content? I can see where keeping the extra hooks out of it makes sense in that case as it makes it easier for the novice to maintain. Having said that, I wonder if it really makes much difference - I mean, what happens if JS is off? It still degrades gracefully. If CSS is off or not supported, what happens? again, it will still work.

Perhaps it is an issue of convenience then, for the developer? If the technique I choose has little to no impact on the people viewing the site, and it helps me, then why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It is not impossible to do with <abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</abbr> (and have it degrade gracefully) and perfectly valid (and semantic) markup, so why sully the document, even is it is via the <abbr title="Document Object Model">DOM</abbr></p></blockquote>
<p>I believe the answer lies in context. Inserting extra elements via the <abbr title="Document Object Model">DOM</abbr> might be a solution to be implemented when you want your content to stay as clean as possible - perhaps if someone else is maintaining the content? I can see where keeping the extra hooks out of it makes sense in that case as it makes it easier for the novice to maintain. Having said that, I wonder if it really makes much difference - I mean, what happens if <abbr title="JavaScript">JS</abbr> is off? It still degrades gracefully. If <abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</abbr> is off or not supported, what happens? again, it will still work.</p>
<p>Perhaps it is an issue of convenience then, for the developer? If the technique I choose has little to no impact on the people viewing the site, and it helps me, then why not?
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		<title>by: Faruk Ateş</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-12</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 15:35:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-12</guid>
					<description>I think it's a good thing to hold this discussion indeed. There are still quite a few things that need to be said about it, I think.

I'll probably make a post on it soon, because it's too much to stuff in a comment here. In short, though, I think that -some- level of purism is great, but it shouldn't be taken to extremes. Adding markup for design hookups is sometimes inevitable, because CSS still has a fair amount of limitations. See my site right now for an example (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kurafire.net/log/archive/2005/05/29/design-update&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;current latest post&lt;/a&gt; has a bit about it, too)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a good thing to hold this discussion indeed. There are still quite a few things that need to be said about it, I think.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll probably make a post on it soon, because it&#8217;s too much to stuff in a comment here. In short, though, I think that -some- level of purism is great, but it shouldn&#8217;t be taken to extremes. Adding markup for design hookups is sometimes inevitable, because <abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</abbr> still has a fair amount of limitations. See my site right now for an example (<a   href="http://www.kurafire.net/log/archive/2005/05/29/design-update"   rel="nofollow">current latest post</a> has a bit about it, too)
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		<title>by: Mark Wubben</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-11</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 10:27:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-11</guid>
					<description>Uhm, yeah, I wrote that, a long time ago. It worked fine for me though ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Uhm, yeah, I wrote that, a long time ago. It worked fine for me though ;-)
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		<title>by: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-10</link>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 May 2005 02:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-10</guid>
					<description>At the risk of remaining off-topic for one more comment, here's the skinny on the comments:

Regarding the comment preview issue, the only thing I can figure is that it was part of the comment preview I have been using (&lt;a href=&quot;http://dev.d10e.net/files/compreval/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;ComPreVal&lt;/a&gt;), coincidentally co-authored by one Mr. Mark Wubben ;-)

I didn't have the time to figure out the error, so I rewrote the form and switched over to one of the live preview plugins (&lt;a href=&quot;http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/LiveCommentPreview&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Live Comment Preview&lt;/a&gt;) and everything seems to be working pretty well now. That said, I think I may alter the form a little more later to offer a preview fallback for those who do not have JavaScript enabled.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of remaining off-topic for one more comment, here&#8217;s the skinny on the comments:</p>
<p>Regarding the comment preview issue, the only thing I can figure is that it was part of the comment preview I have been using (<a   href="http://dev.d10e.net/files/compreval/"   rel="nofollow">ComPreVal</a>), coincidentally co-authored by one Mr. Mark Wubben ;-)</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t have the time to figure out the error, so I rewrote the form and switched over to one of the live preview plugins (<a   href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/LiveCommentPreview"   rel="nofollow">Live Comment Preview</a>) and everything seems to be working pretty well now. That said, I think I may alter the form a little more later to offer a preview fallback for those who do not have JavaScript enabled.
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		<title>by: Aaron</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-7</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2005 21:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-7</guid>
					<description>OK, I&amp;#8217;d agree with being pragmatic (heck I use Geoff Stearns&amp;#8217; &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.deconcept.com/2004/10/14/web-standards-compliant-javascript-flash-detect-and-embed/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;FlashObject&lt;/a&gt;). I do, however, feel strongly about inserting a ton of &amp;#8220;bad&amp;#8221; code into a document to get rounded corners. It is not impossible to do with CSS (and have it degrade gracefully) and perfectly valid (and semantic) markup, so why sully the document, even is it is via the DOM. I guess my feeling is that you have to draw the line somewhere and, in the case of getting Flash content to appear, I would argue for using FlashObject if the Flash was a necessary piece of content, but if it was &amp;#8220;window dressing&amp;#8221; and not necessary for the page to be understandable/usable, I&amp;#8217;d let browsers which don&amp;#8217;t implement &lt;code&gt;&amp;#60;object&amp;#62;&lt;/code&gt; correctly do without.

As for the &lt;code&gt;&amp;#60;br /&amp;#62;&lt;/code&gt; &lt;abbr title=&quot;versus&quot;&gt;vs.&lt;/abbr&gt; &lt;code&gt;&amp;#60;p&amp;#62;&lt;/code&gt;, I&amp;#8217;m new to WordPress and I hadn't noticed that, but I will work on fixing it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I&#8217;d agree with being pragmatic (heck I use Geoff Stearns&#8217; <a   href="http://blog.deconcept.com/2004/10/14/web-standards-compliant-javascript-flash-detect-and-embed/"   rel="nofollow">FlashObject</a>). I do, however, feel strongly about inserting a ton of &#8220;bad&#8221; code into a document to get rounded corners. It is not impossible to do with <abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</abbr> (and have it degrade gracefully) and perfectly valid (and semantic) markup, so why sully the document, even is it is via the <abbr title="Document Object Model">DOM</abbr>. I guess my feeling is that you have to draw the line somewhere and, in the case of getting Flash content to appear, I would argue for using FlashObject if the Flash was a necessary piece of content, but if it was &#8220;window dressing&#8221; and not necessary for the page to be understandable/usable, I&#8217;d let browsers which don&#8217;t implement <code>&#60;object&#62;</code> correctly do without.</p>
<p>As for the <code>&#60;br /&#62;</code> <abbr title="versus">vs.</abbr> <code>&#60;p&#62;</code>, I&#8217;m new to WordPress and I hadn&#8217;t noticed that, but I will work on fixing it.
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		<title>by: Mark Wubben</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-6</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2005 19:02:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-6</guid>
					<description>&lt;abbr title=&quot;Post Script&quot;&gt;P.S.&lt;/abbr&gt; Why does the comment preview use paragraphs, and the final result &lt;code&gt;&amp;#60;br&amp;#62;&lt;/code&gt;?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><abbr title="Post Script">P.S.</abbr> Why does the comment preview use paragraphs, and the final result <code>&#60;br&#62;</code>?
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		<title>by: Mark Wubben</title>
		<link>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-5</link>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 May 2005 19:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.easy-reader.net/archives/2005/05/26/trash-plus-dom-equals-treasure/#comment-5</guid>
					<description>Okay, let&amp;#8217;s have it! :-P

Actually I think &lt;code&gt;:hover&lt;/code&gt; should be behaviour if you want to build things more advanced than a simple &lt;code&gt;a:hover&lt;/code&gt; with it. The support is simply not there to do that using &lt;abbr title=&quot;Cascading Style Sheets&quot;&gt;CSS&lt;/abbr&gt; (and there are other downsides, too), but it is by far the easiest and most reliable solution for &lt;code&gt;a&lt;/code&gt; tags.

As for inserting non-valid elements into the &lt;abbr title=&quot;Document Object Model&quot;&gt;DOM&lt;/abbr&gt;: only as a hack. But the thing is, you need this hack! If you want to insert Flash movies using the &lt;abbr title=&quot;Document Object Model&quot;&gt;DOM&lt;/abbr&gt; &lt;code&gt;object&lt;/code&gt; won&amp;#8217;t save you.

At the end of the day I&amp;#8217;d like to be a pragmatist who solves the problems for virtually all browsers, instead of a theorician which gets it to work the right way in but a few.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, let&#8217;s have it! :-P</p>
<p>Actually I think <code>:hover</code> should be behaviour if you want to build things more advanced than a simple <code>a:hover</code> with it. The support is simply not there to do that using <abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets"><abbr title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</abbr></abbr> (and there are other downsides, too), but it is by far the easiest and most reliable solution for <code>a</code> tags.</p>
<p>As for inserting non-valid elements into the <abbr title="Document Object Model"><abbr title="Document Object Model">DOM</abbr></abbr>: only as a hack. But the thing is, you need this hack! If you want to insert Flash movies using the <abbr title="Document Object Model"><abbr title="Document Object Model">DOM</abbr></abbr> <code>object</code> won&#8217;t save you.</p>
<p>At the end of the day I&#8217;d like to be a pragmatist who solves the problems for virtually all browsers, instead of a theorician which gets it to work the right way in but a few.
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